Now THAT Was a Fun Show

Wow. It was a great thrill for me to talk to Dan Kimball, as I have great respect for him and the work God is doing in and through him and his community at Vintage Faith Church. He manages to maintain a gracious and humble tone in what can sometimes be very contentious conversations.

Which brings me to this point - the phones lit up last night over the homosexual question. It was really good discussion, and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Can we talk about this here? What are YOUR thoughts about homosexuality and the Gospel? I'm not asking for your thoughts on homosexuality here, I'm asking what is a true Gospel response to homosexuals?

Here's one of my big questions - Do you think that God will cut those that sexually immoral in a heterosexual way some type of break in comparison to homosexuals? My fear is that we send that message that somehow that point scale for sin applies here.

Sexual immorality is sexual immorality be it man, woman, dog, cat, corpse. That's my take. How's that for bluntness? We act as if God's going to really punish them and he'll let us off because at least it was with a member of the opposite sex. But sex outside of God's design is immorality, and that's a dilemma isn't it?

One caller indicated that we really ought to "Shame these homosexuals that are coming into our churches flaunting there gay lifestyle." Wow. Do we need to find Jesus in this conversation? Can we love sinners? Can we love them regardless of what category they may, or may not, fall into? Can we make some effort to understand a person's context and their story? What do we do with the words of Jesus in the sermon on the mount? Don't we have some rather large planks in our eyes? Do we really want to be known for what we are against? Can we really punish someone to the cross?

Let me know your thoughts, and let's dialog here. I think we'll put this on the show in a couple of weeks! Let's talk about it!

4 Response to "Now THAT Was a Fun Show"

  • Michael Says:

    I have a very personal take on this post as my ex-wife, became my ex when she decided she was a lesbian. With that said I've obviously gone all over the charts with my personal thoughts and opinions on this issue. But I personally believe the direction you are taking is the one Christ would take.
    I believe my proclivity towards pornography and lustful thoughts are just as evil in the sight of God as homosexuality. However it's not like you're going to see me slapping a rainbow colored bumper sticker on my car proclaiming my love of pornography. Just like you're not going to see a bumper sticker saying, "Adulterers Are People Too". But that's the kind of thing that an openly, outwardly, in your face, homosexual agenda does that brings out the incredibly un-Christ-like comment of your one listener.
    Of course, while I've seen the extremes of Pride Day, in good ol'D.C., and been subject to a jeering group of lesbians while at Promise Keepers, I've never seen such a thing at church.
    So then what is my real take?
    Homosexuality is an abomination to God, but no more so than any other sexual perversion. The question that needs to be asked of the homosexual wanting to accepted by a church is, is this lifestyle something that you are trying to leave behind, or is it something that you're asking me to accept? Not accept as in accept you as a person, but as in accept homosexuality as an acceptable life style. If it's the latter then I'm afraid - no can do. If it's the first and you're trying to put away the old man/woman, then absolutely. I'd welcome such a sinner whole heartedly into our church. I also can't imagine anyone at our church that wouldn't try to come along side such a brother or sister and help them in their struggles.

    But Tal, is that what you are really asking? Or are you asking me to accept into the church an active homosexual? And if you are, then where would you draw the line on what you would allow them to do within the church? If that's the real question you're posing then, while I wouldn't ask them to leave (unless they were wantingly disturbing service) they wouldn't be able to become a member of the church or take part in the Lords Supper. Of course I know a number of people who don't do either but do regularly attend church and join in on the various social functions. So take this a bit farther in your next post and explain to us how this works for you at your church, or what road-blocks you've tried to overcome.


  • Abbey Says:

    I gotta say I'm in a pretty "gutty" place right now, so I may not should comment. But that's never really worked for me, so I will comment even so.
    I'm learning in my old age (and that alone can be argued heavily, so proceed with caution)that there just is no sin beyond the obnoxious grace of God. Believe me, I wish there was. And isn't this the same grace that offers me hope in my pit of shit? (Again, on a better day, I'd edit that.)
    But I feel today, that if God is good, then surely He is good no matter what sin we commit. Sin is sin. I am finding myself beyond nothing. And I am nothing without Christ. I am hopeless without Him. The sermon on the Mount was preached most understandably to me through you, and I believe in what you preached. So, I say no. We can't punish someone to the cross. Not even with homosexuality, as if that's so much worse than what I've done. We love others with the gospelof the cross. A gospel of hope for sinners. And we grieve with and for them for the sake of that same gospel. If anyone should be nailed to a cross, it should surely be me... and I'm no homo.

  • Tal Prince Says:

    Hey Michael,

    Brother, I am so sorry for the pain you have endured. I certainly can't even begin to fathom the deep pain and sense of betrayal you have been through. How long ago did this happen?

    You certainly have a perspective that I do not, and it is very valid and welcomed. Thanks so much for writing.

    "Adulterers are people too." That was funny, my friend. By the way, you could probably sell those bumper stickers all day long.

    I agree that homosexuality is sin. There's no getting around it. Thank you for quickly agreeing that it is no worse than any other sexual sin. I received death threats for writing an article in the Alabama Baptist asking the simple question, "Will God cut the heterosexual adulterer a break over the homosexual adulterer?"

    The fact is that sexual immorality is sexual immorality. I don't care if you're having sex with a man, woman, dog, cat, or a corpse. Sex outside of God's design is costly, and it is sin.

    That said, your question about acceptance is very valid. I hate the saying, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." I prefer acceptance without approval, though it's not worlds better.

    At the church I pastor, we have homosexuals in regular attendance. We have a couple that are HIV+ that drift in and out as well. Some of them are wrestling with the lifestyle, and some believe it is wrong and consider themselves gay, but not engaged in the lifestyle. This is a position that I'm very comfortable with. Personally, I just don't think we need to see them dating and marrying women to prove anything. There are countless "hetero" couples where at least one partner is wrestling same sex attraction issues. You, sadly, came from one of those couples.

    I just don't want to identify people by sexual preference overall. It's such a small part of who we are.

    What I know is this - we have homosexuals in the church I pastor. It is rare that we have openly gay men or women that are openly practicing, but it does happen. My reaction to that is highly positive. Where else will they get the Gospel. They've heard it - they are waiting to SEE it. Huge difference.

    I believe that the Holy Spirit is highly effective at his role. Too many of us have tried to take his job, and tried to convict people of their sin. It's just not the way it's supposed to be. Our job is to reflect Christ. It's just too tempting to not pick up a badge at times for us.

    We need to stand firm on what Scripture says, but we also need to be far more understanding of people. We need to understand that they have stories and a context, too. Do we approve the lifestyle? No, we clearly can not, but we can sure be loving and accepting.

    Thanks again Michael! Keep posting here, and thanks for listening to the show!!!

  • Tal Prince Says:

    Hey Abbey,

    I know you are in a tough place right now. We are praying for you and your family. Dewayne was a great one, and he will be dearly missed.

    Thanks for your comments. I agree with you and know that we are all receiving grace we don't deserve every second we are alive. We deserve hell - right now. Not when we die - RIGHT NOW.

    We all have planks in our eyes that should make it very difficult to judge others of their stuff. And even if many of us have never actually committed a homosexual act, research shows that a large percentage have at least thought about it at some point in their lives. This makes us guilty by the standards set forth in the Sermon on the Mount.

    It is very difficult, isn't it? We all have pits in our lives, and Jesus continually covers them up for us. It's amazing. I'm just glad the blood of the cross was powerful enough to cover anything. Because you and I both know I am a very guilty man.

    Spurgeon said, "If your sin is small, your Savior is small. BUT, if your sin is great, than your Ssvior must be great." I love that.

    We must love. That's it. We can accept without approving.

    We're praying for you!